[00:00:00] And you know, when it gets way more uncomfortable, when you have to get your lawyer involved, when you want to exit the company and there's no documentation. Oh, like best time is before you start the next best time is now. And the worst time is at the end when you hate each other's guts and lawyers are involved.
Welcome back to another episode of success in mind today, I'm joined by Jaime Bell business, lawyer, and founder of the contracts market, where she provides legal contract templates to coaches, freelancers and service providers. Jaime. And I talk about the critical importance of proper contracts in business. She explains her journey from working for a big law firm to founding contracts market. And stresses the necessity of clear and well-constructed agreements. She shares with us common mistakes by a small business owners and the essential elements of a contract. And also the importance of various types of contracts, like client service agreements, and privacy policies. She also [00:01:00] highlights for us the significance of correctly, classifying workers and forming business partnerships with clear. Agreements. If you are self-employed.
If you have a side hustle, if you are a full blown business owner with a huge team, no matter what level or stage of business you are in, you need to listen to this episode and get really clear on the contracts and agreements in your business.
You're listening to Success in Mind, the show for high performing leaders, changemakers, and entrepreneurs ready to take your life and business to the next level. If you're ready for whole life success, keep listening.
Hi, Jaime.
Welcome to the show. Hi, Teri. Thanks so much for having me. So, I want to start with because I'm really curious about why people do what they do and I'm curious about the inspiration behind Contracts Market. How did you create this? Sure. Well, there's two reasons why
I created Contracts Market.
First was very self serving.
I
[00:02:00] was working in a big law firm downtown, uh, Toronto. I was feeling very uninspired from law as a whole, and, uh, I was really looking for something that was a bit more creative, that I was working with cool people, not old guys making them richer. Fair enough. Yeah, I just, I, I've learned a lot about myself since then, but one of the things I didn't realize is me sitting in an office from like 7.
30 to 8 p. m. every night, 7. 30 a. m. to 8 p. m. every night, was not the best use of my brain power, was not when I could work properly, all the things, so when I was working as a lawyer in the typical sense, I just felt like so uninspired, I was banging my head against the wall, In boredom, even though I had, you know, a hundred million dollar construction deals on my desk and just was [00:03:00] totally not enamored with the practice at all.
And then at that time I started really leaning into business podcasts. It had just kind of nice full business podcast concepts had taken off and I was getting really into like, how can I be an entrepreneur? How can I work with people that I'm listening to on my lunch break or on my commute to my law firms and then having to disconnect with them to go do my work and then come back to them at the end of the day to find some inspiration.
Um, I eventually ended up taking nine months off of work altogether and just totally did some soul searching. I was in a very good spot to do that. And I almost threw out everything to do with law altogether. It's like, there is no way. I thought it was going to be a health coach, maybe a career coach for lawyers.
But then I had this realization that then I'd have to work with lawyers again all day. And yeah, I just came back to how can I use these skills [00:04:00] that I have for the people that I'm so inspired by. And that's when I started my own law firm, just working with small business owners, typically female business owners.
And then I also launched Contracts Market that was A way to, you know, scale, which was what I was learning on these business podcasts. How can I scale? But also how can I bridge that gap between expensive legal services, even though I'm on the lower end, I would say in my law firm and giving access to great legal protection for these people that I want to help get their businesses off the ground.
So that's how contracts market came to be and still going strong
five years later. Yeah. It's amazing and I, I mean, I use your products though for my podcast, which is incredible. That's how I came connected with you was using the product and being like, more people need to know about what it is that you're offering.
So yeah, I felt funny though, I have to say, I felt so awkward [00:05:00] sending you my podcast guest agreement that was your template.
I didn't have to read it. I was like, I know this is amazing.
Perfect. Easy. I was like, you might recognize it. You might know exactly what this is. I love that. It's like getting a review.
So, thank you. Well, perfect. Perfect. And it's amazing to me. Like, I have to say, when I send that out to guests, I hear so often that that's the first time they've been sent a guest agreement. And. Which blows my mind because I think we, as podcasters, we need to know about these things and be more aware of what, what we're doing and protect it.
So, yeah,
yeah, I think it also comes back to the whole like ethos of why I started Contracts Market is to help people lay a good foundation in their business before they become a big deal because they hope for a lot of podcasters in this specific situation for this agreement is like we monetize it.
Yeah. At the day, or it's a stream [00:06:00] of referrals or something. So we have to look at even this relationship. Maybe a little less formal, but we are still, there is value being. Exchange here, like my time, your time, you know, if I don't show up at the last minute, there's going to be resentment building there and then what do I get to come back on?
Or, you know, so all of these kinds of little details, just it also shows to me and to your other guests that, yeah, I'm, this is a part of my business and it's an extension of my time and my energy, my resources. So I also take it seriously too, and we can still have a
great time doing it. Exactly. And the other question, the question they always ask me is, what happened?
What was the story behind getting a, an agreement in place? And I was like, nothing happened. That's why I have it, because I don't want to have an issue down the road. Totally. But yeah, they always think there's some backstory, that something bad must have happened for me to have it. We should just come up with something really juicy.
Oh yeah. If I [00:07:00] come across one, I'll send it to you. Okay. Sounds good. Sounds great. Yeah. So, why are contracts so essential in business? And what are some of the common mistakes that you see small business owners make when it comes to either setting up their contracts or signing a contract?
Yeah, let's start there.
So, usually, right out of the gate, people don't think that they need a contract. I think they think, I have the best clients, or I'm only gonna get great clients, or it's only a side hustle. I mean, I hate that term, but it's not. It's a side hustle, so it's not important enough, like whatever that, whatever enough means.
And so they either don't use them or they waste a lot of time or create something themselves that doesn't actually protect their business or maybe even reflect their business or they've put a lot of extra time, like a lot of time and energy and resources into creating the business and the branding and everything like that, but then their contract doesn't [00:08:00] actually align with their brand messaging or the language that they're using,
right?
There's this disconnect between You know, this business that you're building and kind of this crappy foundation that you're creating in the legal side. So usually one of the biggest issues I see is a people not using contracts soon enough and they're waiting for that issue Like you described to happen to them to kind of light the fire or especially my law firm I see this because on my contracts market side, it's a product so I don't get to see what people are using before They usually just come at me with oh god.
I'm not I'm so embarrassed by what I'm gonna send you And I'm like, well, if you're embarrassing me, you should probably embarrass send your clients. And that's just not the vibe we want. We want to be proud of everything that comes out of our email inboxes and send to clients. And then the issue I typically see with people who have a contract but did it themselves is number one, it's usually really in favor of the client and it's not doing much to protect yourself [00:09:00] because.
It's coming from a place of, I really want you to work with me, and boundaries aren't my strong suits. I'm just gonna make sure that you really, there's nothing really protecting, it's just really bare bones. Or there's so much inconsistency in it, and this It comes down to, you know, defined terms or clauses that don't quite work together.
Like you have a no refunds clause, but then you're giving a refund if they reschedule. Like I've seen it all. So I feel like client contracts that just don't really protect your business and that are really inconsistent can actually lead to bigger issues down the road because they're confusing for everybody.
So a better contract will be really clear. It will protect both of you. Because I'm of the opinion, especially the contracts that I draft for the people who I'm drafting for, we're trying to form great relationships. We don't want to come at them with a really heavily one sided contract. We want both people to feel like it's fair and they're, they're working, they're starting working together on the right foot, but [00:10:00] also that there's boundaries in place.
Usually, One of my favorite questions I get asked when people are going through the process of thinking about buying a template for me, or even hiring me in my law firm, is like, how long is it gonna be? I'm like, well, it's gonna be as long as it is to protect you, and I've actually, to this day, never had feedback that the contract's been too long.
It's like, oh, I actually didn't have any of this in my last contract, and I feel so much better now. You know, clauses about, like, when can people Expect responses from you or how can people use the deliverables that you're creating for them? Can they resell them? Well, if your contract doesn't say that they probably can.
Um, so just, yeah, just things like that, you know, yeah. Right. Or they probably will. So, just thinking about things beyond the obvious, like when, what happens and how do I get paid? When am I delivering all the things? I think that's the biggest issue I see as well is just [00:11:00] it's not, it's really vague. And we like relationships that are clear with expectations that are set out from the start.
Yeah. And I think, you know, something that. That you've touched on that really kind of sparked something for me was that you're talking about the relationship and I think having a clear contract will really help protect a client relationship where I think many small business owners, we think that, oh, if I come at them with this long contract, it's going to damage the relationship, but what I'm hearing from you is that it's actually the opposite.
It's
the
opposite
in most cases, but one contracts that I see damaged the relationship are those. Old ones that are like 30 pages long, 30 pages long and like old Shakespearean legalese and nobody understands it and it's so off putting. And I've seen other lawyers drop these where it's so off putting and it's so off brand and it's so far from what the relationship is.
It's supposed to feel like that nobody wants to touch it, [00:12:00] right? And it's like, well, have you ever read your own contract page for page? So those are the kind of ones that I see actually damage relationships that really heavy one sided confusing full of legalese. But if you have a contract that's in line with your values, that's in line with, you know, normal language that you use, that's branded in your way, it's just a natural extension of your brand and people are Often very happy to read them because they know what they're
getting.
That makes sense. Yeah. Such a good point.
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What are some key elements that Every contract must have in order to, to make it legally enforceable, or are there key elements that everyone should have?
Yeah, so as long as you have, there's three legal things that you need in a contract, no matter what we're talking about.
prenups , leases, let's talk client service agreements or contractor agreements. You have to have an offer. You have to have somebody say, Hey, this is what I'm offering in exchange for a number two consideration. That's the value that's being exchanged. And number three is acceptance. So, and that just means, yes, I agree, I've signed the contract, we know a thumbs up means an emoji is acceptance of a contract now, [00:14:00] emojis are, emojis are legally binding, that's a fun one.
Really? Yeah, it's been shown that an emoji is legally binding. So you just have to have those three things, offer, consideration, and acceptance. So let's talk client service agreements, something that you're providing to your client, whether it's another business owner or somebody who's personally hiring you in their life for some reason, kind of some top level things that should definitely be in your client services agreement are very specific services.
What exactly are you providing in exchange for your fee? If you have deliverables to clients, then I always recommend getting really specific with those. One of the things when you are drafting your own contract or editing a template or advising a lawyer, but what you're trying to accomplish with your contract is you want to make sure there's as little surface area for friction as possible.
And deliverables is a good example of a client thinks that they're hiring you for something and really you're only [00:15:00] giving them a certain level of deliverables for your fee. So getting really clear about exactly what is included in as part of your fee, especially if you're in a really niche area. I remember when I first hired a bookkeeper and this is like a while ago.
I didn't realize that they didn't. File or no, I hired an accountant, but I didn't realize that she didn't actually do tax returns. So I just thought like I hired an accountant, right. And she would then do my tax return. And when it came time for tax filings. I was like, great, you've got all the information.
She's like, oh, I don't do corporate tax filings. And I was like, well, you're an accountant. She's like, oh, but that's not part of my services. So remember you have to be really clear because you're the expert. And I actually don't know the right questions to ask because I'm coming. I just know like the box of what I need and I need to make sure that what I need fits what you're giving me.
So making sure you're really explaining, like, for instance, for SEO, if you're an SEO [00:16:00] expert, like what are you doing for your client? Because your, your client might just want to rank first on Google, but you know, there's 300 different things that need to be done to rank first on Google, but you're only doing the top like 10 of those things.
So really making sure that your contract explains to your client exactly what you're doing. It's almost acting like a checklist under your services section for deliverables. And if you have a proposal that a client has signed off on, that's a great place for that to live. Another key area, people usually get this one pretty right, is like, what are you paying?
Yeah, you know, the fee, people cover that one pretty well. Um, I will say just depending on where you are located, you can't just, you can't charge a late fee or interest on a fee unless that your contract provides that there's going to be a late fee. So you don't just get to, you know, willy nilly throw on 5 percent interest or a 300 late fee because your client hasn't paid that has to be set out in your [00:17:00] contract.
And there's also different rates of interest. Um, maximum rates of interest you're allowed to charge in certain jurisdictions, if that's something that you're thinking about, has to go in your contract. And then other things that I think people start getting right the longer they're in business is understanding how your relationships and processes typically flow and having that really reflected in your contract.
So if you have set blocks of time in your calendar that is dedicated to work time, your contract's a really great place to say, Hey, I answer emails, you know, only after noon on Tuesday, Wednesdays and Thursdays, the rest of the day, you can expect a longer response time. Or a good example, I just updated my retainer for my law firm because I had a few fun client issues come up on Christmas Day this year and wow, they were urgent and I checked my email and I felt like this need [00:18:00] to respond and start helping out over the holidays and I started feeling resentment because it was only at my typical hourly rate and so I've just added a clause in my um, um, My own client work retainer that says like anything that's deemed urgent and going and is required to be answered outside of office hours is at one and a half times my hourly rate.
And that's just a way that I can feel like, okay, the resentment will take longer to creep in. Yeah. Now that I'm addressing that or letting people know my office hours, because I'm in an old school professional lawyer, people expect nine to five or for lawyers, you know, any time of day we seem to be perceived to be available.
So just really honing that in and then I don't want to go on too long about this, but another thing that people tend to miss. Is getting really clear on intellectual property ownership rights in their contracts. And you know, if you're a graphic designer and being [00:19:00] hired to create logos for your clients, it's probably expected that your clients own that at the end of the end of the project.
And I've seen clients come back from contracts from the graphic designer and say, is this real that I don't own my logo? Like I just have a license to use it. I mean, that's a, a bad business practice and b, you know, it seems ridiculous that a graphic designer would want to continue to own that. Yeah.
Maybe you assigned the final logo, but all those potential drafts that were discarded, the different options you gave to your client, you want to make sure that you're keeping those and maybe you can repurpose them again for a different client. So in that situation, you could say, yep, you're the owner of the final logo you selected.
And the files that I sent to you, maybe you decide that you don't send the raw files over. But any discarded drafts, I retain as the designer because that's my work, you didn't want it, you haven't paid for it, and I might use it for a new client. So just getting [00:20:00] really clear on that, and that's obviously very industry specific.
But you know, if you're in a professional service, like even a bookkeeper, I had someone reach out to me the other day saying, Hey, I've developed all these like SOPs. For my clients and now I'm off boarding my client and she wants all the framework that I've included for her bookkeeping management And and things I've inputted my IP into hers and I was like, well, what does your contract say?
She's like, well, I carved it out, but she still wants to buy it from you I'm like, well you decide if you want to sell it to her But otherwise she just gets her access to QuickBooks and the data that's in there and this whole framework that you've created As part of your own business IP that she doesn't get rights to that.
So that's where it's important to start carving out these different rights and making sure you're really clear. And then at the time that you're sending your contract over to your client, that they understand what they're getting at the end of the day, in terms of deliverables.
Yeah. Oh. You're making me think so much about my business and where I need [00:21:00] to revisit things.
This is good. This is so good. I've seen that in the past with photographers, where I want to get branding photography done, which meant like, I want to be able to like crop things or put text on an image or something for social media. And there was one that was like, I could not touch the photos, change them, alter them, do anything with them after.
And I was like, well, that's. Not really gonna work, but it was such a tight contract of like, I had no rights to change or doctor any photo. Yeah. Which was like, oh, that's, yeah, yeah, it surprised me.
Yeah, branding photographers, um, can be quite strict around that. They're, on the one hand, they're trying to protect their aesthetic and the way that it's, so I get like, you don't want to put a filter on or something like that after, but yeah, if you're using it for marketing or commercial purposes, I actually had a client come to me and she's like, I just spent 5, 000 on branding photos and the contract says I can't use them for commercial purposes.
What? [00:22:00] And I was like, whoa. You told her, right? Like, this is for your business. She's like, oh yeah, but not for official purposes. I was like, well, let's go back to her and make sure she understands what that means. Like, you're not going to sell them to a magazine to use, but you can post them on your website for marketing and Instagram.
And that was actually what happened. The photographer didn't understand what her contract meant. So when we went back and explained what the language was, she was like, oh, of course you can use it for branding. And I was like, well, that's not what your contract says. Take away, make sure you understand the terms and if you don't get clarity on them so you can explain them to your clients and avoid all this friction.
That
makes so much sense that we need to understand our own contracts. So important. What types of contracts should we be looking at? So if you take like a small online based business, what are the types of contracts we should be considering?
Yeah. So there's four that come to mind for me right off the hop.
Number one, client service agreement. That's your moneymaker. Make sure it [00:23:00] is dialed. Make sure you, it actually reflects your policies and procedures. Make sure you update it from time to time. Make sure that if you have different service offerings that you tailored. that contract specific to each offering and you know, take an initial template and then just template one, template two, template three, so that you can easily just reuse and repurpose all the time.
So your client service agreement, that's your money maker. Make sure it is dialed. I know I'm biased, but I'm going to say it anyway. I've definitely not hired people and chosen another service provider because their contract was garbage. And I was like, if this is how you want me to onboard, I'm a little tepid about how the rest of your service deliverables are going to be.
So I know I'm biased, come at that with a grain of salt, but people are pretty savvy and the longer you're in business, people have started reading these contracts a lot more. They have a general sense of what they're looking for. So that's number one. Number two, which is a legal [00:24:00] requirement is a privacy policy.
If you have a website, you are required legally to have a privacy policy that is specific to your business and how you collect data from your customers online, whether it's cookies, email lists, whatever. If you have a website, you're collecting data, you need a privacy policy. And based on where your users to your website are based is what laws need to apply.
So. If you are in Canada, if you're a Canada based service provider, very likely you have some traffic coming from California. You need to comply with California privacy laws. If you are marketing to anywhere in Europe, you have to comply with the GDPR for certain things.
Okay.
So have a privacy policy and there are lawyers who are trolls working on behalf of troll clients who are using AI to scan websites looking for privacy policies, hit them with a letter saying you've illegally collected my data, I'm going to start an [00:25:00] action against you, unless you settle with me for the low, low price of 500.
And this is a nice little side business that's happening. So it's such low hanging fruit to have a privacy policy and just make sure that one is reflective of the software you're using in your businesses and why you're collecting data in the first place. Okay, on that note, I will just give a little tip when you're collecting names or emails or any kind of information for your email list or to provide a product or service that you're offering.
It's a really good habit to get into to collect the least amount of information you need about that person to Okay. Offer the service. So, you know, maybe it's just a first name and an email address. Like when I see people's first name, last name, cell phone number, email address, and God forbid, full address just for a freebie, I'm like, this is a data breach nightmare waiting to happen.
So just get in the habit of collecting as little information as you need. So we have client service agreement, privacy [00:26:00] policy, hand in hand with privacy policy, just website terms of use. So how can people interact with your website if you're selling offers on your website? When what's your refund policy?
How can people use your content? What about how people can use your freebies? Can they repurpose them? Can they not? Probably not. So just being really clear about that and Addressing any like common issues that come up with you in your website your users, you know under frequently asked questions section And then the last one I'll say is a contractor agreement for that time you start bringing contractors into your business.
So if you're hiring anybody in your business and they don't have their own form of agreement, make sure that you're documenting that relationship with a contractor agreement. And that's kind of like the general one, but kind of the general framework. But I will say if you have people in your audience who are.
You know, in the [00:27:00] influencer world or doing value exchanges or anything like that. Think of these things as transactions. I know, um, you know, service swaps or something like that. Like that's worthy of if nothing else, at least an email. But you know, if you're doing a service swap, like that's a really great opportunity, like practice using your contract and say like, Hey, because.
That's your, it's still a relationship you're trying to protect. So, just kind of thinking about the different areas where, um, maybe something a little bit more than a DM is worth it, and I don't want to be the person that says you need a contract for everything, but there's a lot of situations that would have a benefit of using a contract, or at least really clear email terms.
Yeah, if the contract seems over and above what it's called for, but I just feel like there's so much miscommunication. People are busy. We skim things. We don't realize there's deadlines, all this kind of stuff. That's why, you know, [00:28:00] even the podcast guest agreement is a great opportunity. I'm like, Oh, here's The contract, the information involved, I have a headshot, I, you know, show up at this time ten minutes before, it just sets the tone for what you're hoping to carry through in the
relationship.
Oh, it makes so much sense. What are some things that we should think about in terms of protecting ourselves when we're looking at contracting out or hiring a freelancer, business partners, like where, what are the things we should consider?
Okay, so I'm going to address the contractor question first, and then I'm going to address the business partner question, because I've had that experience.
So, the contractor agreement, the first thing when you're hiring anybody in your business is to make sure that it's indeed a contractor relationship. If I had a dollar for every time I said, just because you call somebody a contractor doesn't mean that they're a contractor, I'd be a wealthy woman. So in most places in North America, there are laws determining and dictating what the [00:29:00] difference is between a contractor and an employee.
And I'm seeing a lot of people friending towards, well, I don't want to go through the whole process of hiring an employee. So I'm going to hire them as a contractor, but they're their sole income. They're dictating the hours. They're giving them access to all the tools that they need to do their business.
And in tools, I mean, Canva or Dubsado or HoneyBook, and they're managing their business and they're an integral part of that person's Business, that's an employee relationship in a lot of situations and you as a business owner doing the hiring are the one who is at risk here because in Canada, the Canada Revenue Agency could come back and say, well, this contractor was actually an employee since you hired them in 2020.
And now you're on the hook for all the back, the back pay of deductions that should have been taken at source. So pension, [00:30:00] CPP, employment insurance. Other taxes that should have been rightly taken from a salary versus a payment to a contractor. So before you do any hiring in your business, other than, you know, project based, like a graphic designer, hey, I'm hiring the graphic designer logo.
That is a contractor. She's got, they've got their own business. You're one of many clients. They're not relying on you as their sole source of income that you're aware of, or they shouldn't be. That's a contractor, but I'm just dealing with a client today who runs a counseling business and she's like well I'm gonna ask if my new administrative assistant wants to be a contractor employee.
It's like well hold up Let's talk about what this relationship actually looks like she was gonna be working nine to five and you're giving her a laptop In a cell phone number and all these kind of things, that's an employee relationship. So you don't just get to ask her what she wants to be, what, what does the government think that's going to be?
And then we have to look at it from a legal. So that's an employee [00:31:00] relationship. So that would be the number one thing I would say is make sure that it's the right, you're classifying your worker correctly first, and then make sure you have the contract around it. So. For, for contractors, again, it's the same stuff as a client service agreement.
It's just flipped. So, who owns the deliverables, who owns the IP, what happens to records when contractors off boarding me, those kind of things, and making sure they have insurance in place. Yeah. That's a good way to protect yourself. Yeah. Just making sure you have the contract that looks like their form of client service agreement that they're hiring for you, or if it's your form of contractor agreement, just making sure it's very clear how they're getting paid, how that they integrate into your business for a little bit.
If they need access to records or your data for any kind of way in any kind of form such that they can carry out their services.
Okay. Okay. And then how about the business [00:32:00] partnerships? Ah, yes. Yeah. So
treat it like a marriage. You know, if we're talking about actually starting a business together, that means that you are joining forces and you want to think about the worst case situation before you get into business together.
I would say my rate of people coming to me saying they're really excited to start a business and then I give them my checklist of conversations that they have to have. Before we do the partnership agreement or the shareholders agreement they've decided to incorporate probably 30 to 40 percent of them come back and say, you know, we agreed on the colors and the logo, but we sure didn't agree on how to reinvest profits into the business or who is going to make decisions and what did, what, how were we going to make decisions if we didn't agree and how we're funding this business and all this stuff.
First ask if you are going into business, like, do you really [00:33:00] need that person? Do you really need their skillset? Is their skillset complimentary to yours? Do they operate in the same way? Can they hold themselves accountable? Like all these kinds of, how well do you work together? You might be friends, but maybe it shouldn't be friends.
And maybe you do a collaboration venture first, where you like work on a project together and see if it works versus bringing all your business finances and
I'm always of the opinion that like you need to go into it with as much detail as you think about going into a marriage and then make sure that you paper that relationship really clearly and what happens if one person wants to leave. How do you buy that person out? Can they buy it out? Who gets the intellectual property if you haven't incorporated?
You guys both own that together. So who gets the logo, who gets the website, the SEO, everything, there's value attached to that. So really think about what happens if somebody wants to leave and it might not be for bad purposes. It might just mean [00:34:00] like, Hey, I don't want to do this anymore. I've got a new idea.
What does that look like? If you've put 20 grand in the business, how, and they need their 20 grand back, how do you get that money back? Right. There's lots of different considerations. Definitely, before you do the branding, before you do the logo and drop a bunch of money, I would say sit down and have a real honest conversation and, you know, go to CHI GPT.
What are the 20 biggest 20 questions two business partners need to ask each other before, yeah, before we start a business together and see how far you get down the list and then take those answers and put them into agreement. And that's where I definitely would recommend getting legal advice about that before
moving forward.
Oh, it's such good advice. I've seen so many business partnerships end really badly. Me too. And for those exact reasons. Oh,
yeah,
me too. Me too. I was in one too.
And we had an agreement, so it was as clean as [00:35:00] possible, but also there's, you know, still stuff that comes up after the fact, so. Yeah, and it's, it's really like a
divorce.
Like it's, and it can get ugly. It's like a
divorce. And people always think we'll just deal with the issue on the exit and it's like, well, that's when you won't like each other. And if you still like each other by that point, you probably won't like each other by the time you have all these conversations.
Yeah. So it's just like a pre nup. Get a pre nup. Mm
hmm.
Have these hard conversations first because it's also very telling in and of itself if they don't want to have the hard conversations first and if they're not emotionally and, you know. business emotionally mature enough to consider things might not go according to plan.
And that in and of itself, like a prenup is a red flag.
Yeah. Such, such good advice. Learning so much, so much to think about.
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So let's say, you know, like I use, I use your templates. I use templates, my business. At what point do we need to move beyond the templates and have something more custom for our business, for our contracts?
Like a, what When do we need to actually sit down with you or another business lawyer and have something drafted up?
Yeah, I think for a lot of people a template doesn't feel good to start with, so if that's you, by all means go hire a lawyer for sure. We're still, we're still doing our jobs over here.
Yeah. Doing the Lord's work and helping business owners who don't feel comfortable with templates or just want specific advice. If you have a really unique business, I think it's a really good idea to work with a lawyer or one that's a bit risky. Okay. You know, like anything that's food services, construction, or working with kids, I don't do templates for.
Um, I think that there's a whole different structure to starting that [00:38:00] business from a risk, um, averse perspective. Yeah. Um, so I don't do anything like that. Um, if you are finding that the contract template that you're working with is just not enough, you know, you want a bit more specific language. You can go get a new template drafted or a new contract drafted that addresses those things or take the one that you're using and have it fine tuned.
Another area I 100 percent don't recommend using templates in is in employment as employment agreements. By the time you're hiring an employee, there's also a different level of advice that you should be getting. And also, employment law differs so much from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and it's Can be quite expensive for the employer if things don't go right, or the agreement's not done right, or any of those things, the termination clauses and the severance clauses aren't drafted right.
So, I don't sell employment templates. I think that is best left to lawyers. And don't just take the one your lawyer, [00:39:00] or your employer sent you and cross out the name and put someone else's in and do the hiring. Like, these things are drafted very specifically for the business, for the relationship. So hire a lawyer in that situation.
Yeah. And then also this whole talk about starting a business with someone. Great time to get legal advice. I think there's a lot of nuance there and it is nice to have a third party kind of pose questions to the people wanting to start a business together and say like, Hey, have you thought about this?
Or, Hey, these are, this is my two cents, take with it what you want. Especially if there's a financial disparity between the two partners. You want to make sure that the, or if you're not going into business 50 50, if you're, you know, 70 30, you want to make sure that if you, especially if you're the minority shareholder, that you've got some of your interests protected.
Yeah. We're, we're still out, there's still room for lawyers for sure. Perfect. Perfect. Yeah.
Yeah. And how [00:40:00] about, you know, if someone finds themselves in a business partnership and they haven't set up their agreements and they're listening to this. Is it too late, or can you still have an agreement? You can still
have an agreement.
Okay. So if you're thinking, you can definitely still have an agreement. Okay. As long as both people want to sign something. Right. Yeah, good point. But if, you know, that comes back full circle to what we were talking about before, like, it is just to clarify relationships, and it shouldn't be 100 percent in favor of one person.
A good way to broach that conversation might just be like, Hey, I was listening to this podcast. Here's the link. Don't you think it'd be a really great time to like set out how, um, some of these processes just in case, you know, I'm not thinking about anything, but just in case. Now, if you have loaned money to the company to document that, or if one person's doing more decision making around a certain role and the other person's doing more decision ranking around other decisions, [00:41:00] lay that out.
Like, it's a great time to just flesh these things out. So then it's there in the event that you need to ever rely on it and um, that's just it. If you ever need to rely on it, I mean, I, I have a lot of friends doing like pre nups and things right now. My partner and I just did one and our whole thing is like we want to protect each other because we love each other.
Yeah. You know,
same with business partners. I want to protect your interests. You want to protect my interests. And if we never have to rely on it, we find it in a drawer 10 years from now, we can just have a glass of wine and laugh about it, but at least we know it's there.
Yeah. Totally. So
it's just coming from a more loving place about respecting the relationship versus, Hey, I heard this podcast.
We have to set up this agreement now. You know, like I want to make sure, you know, like probably not going to go the same way as like, Hey, listen to this podcast, think it's a great idea. What do you think? Let's, let's work together and get some ideas down in a Google doc and, and see how we can [00:42:00] make this a bit more formal.
I love that. I love that approach to it. I think that's. Such a great way to look at it instead of because so many times I think people get really uncomfortable with those conversations and think, Oh, they're going to think that I'm out to get them or something, but that's such a nice way to approach it, such a caring way.
And you
know, when it gets way more uncomfortable when you have to get your lawyer involved when you want to exit the company and there's no documentation. Like best time is before you start the next best time is now and the worst time is at the end when you hate each other's guts. And lawyers are involved because we are expensive and it's so much easier for us and less expensive for the person hiring us.
If we can just go look at an agreement versus looking through five years worth of emails to try and pick apart what the terms were.
Gotcha. Yeah, so good. So good. And I had a question come from Someone in my Instagram community, she asked the question, LJ, and she asked the question, when dissolving an incorporated [00:43:00] business, how do you ensure it's protected from future lawsuits?
Well, once the company doesn't exist anymore, then it's the directors or the shareholders who would potentially be liable. So one of the things that you have to say when you're dissolving a company, at least in British Columbia, is that you're not aware of any lawsuits. So, my, my, uh, educational moment for this, not advice, would be to, uh, before you dissolve a company, definitely work with a lawyer to make sure you do it properly.
Do depending on what jurisdiction you are anyway, but make sure that maybe you take out an insurance policy. Separate from the company. See if you can do something like that. So that if you ever had a claim come up, um, you still have some coverage and thanks. I'm not sure if those kind of clauses or policies exist, but I'm sure there's something that you could get.
Great. Perfect. And then I have some rapid fire questions for you what is your favorite book or a book that you'd like to recommend?
Ooh, favorite book [00:44:00] that I like to read? I can't think of one right now. I've had so many on the go.
I, the one that really helped me actually when I was like going through this whole life transition, figure my life out was like, it was called Design Your Life. And I've found a few copies around thrift stores and stuff since then and like bought one for my brother and a couple other people. But it's just a really simplified way of like figuring out the areas of your life.
That are fueling you up and not fueling you up. And I, I always kind of come back to that book and just the framework. If you're like, I'm a self help junkie. So I really liked that one. Yeah. But uh, there's one that I could think of there. Perfect. Yeah. And your favorite food? Uh, grandma's spaghetti. Her recipe anyway.
Yeah. Nice.
That'd be my dying meal. Awesome. And who's a celebrity you would like to have dinner with, dead or alive? I would say Taylor Swift.
Oh yeah. I went to her concert in December, or uh, her second last concert, and it was like, yeah, the best. [00:45:00] Yeah, I heard it was like life changing for people. Yeah, it was amazing, and all the things you wanted out of it and more, but I feel like she'd just be fun.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You're the first one to say Taylor Swift. That's amazing. Because I'm the most basic guest you've probably ever had on. But that's my answer. No. Not at all. Not at all.
And what's your go to karaoke song? I just thought of that one the other day. I love like, I haven't done karaoke for so long, but like Pitchers by Sheryl Crow and Kid Rock.
Oh, that's a great one. Yeah. Yeah. You can really
howl it. Great choice. I love it. And then I have the last guest that I had on passed along a question for you as well, Yehel Demeter, and he asks, What would you do for a living if you knew you would not fail but you couldn't talk about it with anyone? No one would know that you did it.
What a great question.
Yeah.
I feel like I don't have anything that I wouldn't tell anybody. I would like, shout it from the rafters, like, I always thought if I had a lick of talent, [00:46:00] which I don't, which you can see from the back of my wall right now, I would love to be an interior designer with, like, clients who have unlimited budgets and, like, maximalist interior design.
Sounds fun, yeah. But I would definitely shout that from the rooftops, but again, not a lick of talent and no hope in hell.
Gotcha. Okay. Great answer. And what's a question you would like to pass along to the next guest without knowing who they are?
Excellent. Huh. It's so basic, but I'm always so curious as to what was like a moment that shifted their perspective that they carry with them today.
Nice.
That's a great question. Okay. Perfect. I'm going to tune into here. Yeah, definitely. And any last thoughts you want to leave the audience with today? I think this was a great conversation.
I feel sometimes how much advice or tips I give in the segment can feel a little overwhelming, but I just want to congratulate your listener for like tuning in to listen to a [00:47:00] lawyer talk contracts for the last 49 minutes.
Just I just don't want you to feel intimidated like you have to know it all or you have to do everything. If there's one little thing that, you know, one day down the road raises a flag for you and said, I think I heard about this somewhere. I'm going to look into this. That's all you need to walk away from, away from this podcast with.
So like, don't feel overwhelmed. You don't need to be a lawyer in your business. You just need to understand some concepts so that you can do the things, lay a good legal foundation in your business. And these things take a little bit of time. So don't feel, don't panic. Don't freak out. Just take one little action step and maybe implement that today.
And if not, just know that it's buried somewhere in your subconscious and maybe one day something will flag and you'll be like, yep, I need to pay more attention to this thing. And that's it.
Perfect. Great advice. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate it. My pleasure, Teri. Thank you so [00:48:00] much.
Thank you for joining us today, all of the links to connect with Jamie and learn more about the contracts market. You can find all of those links in the show notes. And of course, every other link that was mentioned in this episode, you will find there as well. But of course, nothing happens without taking action.
I would love to hear from you. What are your takeaways from this episode? What are you going to do differently? Maybe it's reviewing your privacy policy or getting one of those contracts in place that you know that you're missing. Maybe it's reading through your own service agreement to make sure that you understand all the language in it.
Whatever it is, let me know, send me a message at the Teri Holland on Instagram or any social media platform, or just drop me an email and let me know what your biggest takeaway was from today. As always, your ratings and reviews are so appreciated. because it helps other people like you to find this show.
So if you would be so kind to please hit that rating button, leave your five star [00:49:00] review. And if you're on Apple or another platform that lets you leave a written review, please leave a written review as well. Thank you so much. I appreciate all of you and make sure you come back later this week.
I'm going to be sharing all about my recent TEDx talk and what I learned from the experience and how it went and all the ins and outs of it. You don't want to miss it. Bye for now, my friends.
